In this episode of The Localist, host Carrie Rollwagen talks with Brian McMillan and John Litzinger of The Son of a Butcher, a Birmingham-based butcher shop that grew out of Evans Meats during the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic. What started as curbside meat sales quickly turned into a thriving retail shop in Pepper Place. Brian explains how the idea to open a storefront came from wanting to maintain the strong community ties they built during the crisis.
John, the shop’s Head Cheesemonger, shares how his love for cheese and storytelling shaped the shop’s customer experience. Focused on education and quality, The Son of a Butcher works closely with small producers to offer curated, meaningful food experiences—from artisan cheese to their now-popular sandwich program. With relationships at the core of their business, the team has created more than a shop—it’s a hub for food, connection, and community.
Mentioned in this episode:
Website: https://thesonofabutcher.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesonofabutcher_bham/
Evan’s Meat & Seafood: https://www.instagram.com/evansmeatsandseafood/
Pepper Place: https://www.instagram.com/pepperplacebham/
Episode Transcript
Carrie
welcome to the localist a conversation with local makers and independent entrepreneurs. I’m your host, author of The localist book and former small business owner, Carrie Rollwagen, today we’re talking with son of a butcher. So son of a butcher is a butcher shop. They also sell specialty foods, like specialty cheeses, different fish, different all kinds of specialty foods. We’ll talk more about that on the podcast. They’re actually a neighbor of infomedia. They’re right across the street from us, so we’ve been able to watch as they open the shop and grew the business to what it is today. Now, son of a butcher grew out of Evans meats and seafoods, which we’ll talk about that relationship some too. So it was really a cool story to hear how they opened the shop and how they’ve developed son of a butcher to kind of have its own personality and still be a part of Evan’s meats as well. Today, we’re talking with Brian McMillan, who is specialty director at Evans meats and seafood, and we’re also talking with John Litzinger, who is Head cheesemonger and does a lot with the specialty foods over at son of a butcher. I love this conversation so much. We talk about the business itself. A lot we talk about food. We talk about connecting with customers, both the customers that Evan’s meats has of the restaurant client and the customers that sign up a butcher has of people who actually just walk into the brick and mortar. We really get into how both John and Brian got started as cheese mongers, and how they developed the love of food that is really what set son of a butcher apart. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do too. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Hey, thanks for thanks for having us. Yeah, I’m really excited. We’ve been neighbors. So infomedia is across the street from son of a butcher, and we were always walking across the street and those kind of things. But I wanted to have you guys on for a long time. So thanks for coming, yeah, thanks for the invite. Yeah, yeah.
John Litzinger
I didn’t know how close it was until till I pulled up across the street.
Carrie
Yeah, you guys are open to actual customers who can walk in. Yeah, I guess you could technically walk in and order a website at the front desk here, but most people don’t. Yeah, feel free if you’re listening.
Carrie
Well, I want to talk a little bit about how son of a butcher got started this like you guys open after covid, right? Because I think that’s part of the origin story. Is that, yeah, after or during, depending on how you how you mark time, right? Yeah. Well, that holds a period of time. I think it’s fuzzy for everybody, for sure. Yeah.
Carrie
So how did that? And you grew out of Evans, meats and seafoods, right? Correct? So, yeah, tell me some about that.
Brian McMillan
So, so our origin story for son of a butcher definitely came out of a period of crisis.
Brian McMillan
It was early March 2020, and we had a warehouse full of meat and specialty food that
Brian McMillan
we needed to sell. And our customers at Evans meets are, you know, predominantly restaurants with some small retail and hotel in the mix, and obviously, when they had to close,
Brian McMillan
we needed to find an outlet. And we just sort of got in a room and tried to figure it out and decided that going direct to the public was the most efficient way to do it. We built a website, and
Brian McMillan
by the next day, we were on the curb on Findlay Avenue, servicing, you know, three to 500 cars every day. Wow, yeah,
Brian McMillan
it was definitely the Wild West.
Brian McMillan
And, you know. So we continued that, and then as our,
Brian McMillan
as our restaurant partners, started to reopen.
Brian McMillan
You know, the need to get cars off of our curb on Finley started to become a little more urgent. So we kind of, I think, half joking. We’re like, you know, Adam was like, What are Adam Evans, our president, one of the owners, so Well, you know, we’ve served a lot of people for, you know, several months now, and we, you know, I’m going to feel pretty bad just turning that faucet off. So I said, why don’t we just open a butcher shop?
Carrie
And never say that.
Carrie
They’re always like, sounds good, you make it happen, right?
Brian McMillan
So, no, it was, it was very much, you know, the the genesis of,
Brian McMillan
you know, what ended up being a really good idea. And, you know, great thing for Birmingham.
Brian McMillan
So we
Brian McMillan
started reaching out and putting a team together, and John was one of the first that we reached out to,
Brian McMillan
John litzinger here. And,
Brian McMillan
you know, it just so happened he was at a point in his life when he was looking to make a change out of a long term career. So
Brian McMillan
he came on board and and as as kind of running our specialty department, if you will, which is everything that you don’t have to cook is easiest way, pretty much, yeah,
John Litzinger
like cheese, charcuterie, oils, you know, all that kind of stuff. That makes sense.
Carrie
I was like, I feel like the whole place is a specialty department. That is a compliment. I feel like that’d be fair.
Carrie
Well, how did you, did you meet at through your other work? Did you meet like, would or did you just, did you have people buying from you, from restaurants, like, how did you kind of put that team together,
Brian McMillan
you know, and I think that kind of goes down, goes back to
Brian McMillan
just the relationships we have in this community in Birmingham, which is where we’re based,
Brian McMillan
you know, we just sort of,
Brian McMillan
you know, one of our strengths is knowing a lot of people, and kind of, if We have an opportunity for him, kind of being mindful of that thinking. And John’s case,
Brian McMillan
we had his former co worker
Brian McMillan
moved, moved away, moved on, and connected me with John and let me know that John was looking to do something a little more. I’ll let John finish what he’s looking to do.
John Litzinger
I mean, honestly, yeah, so So my previous, my previous employment, I’ve been a cheesemonger for a good minute. I think I’m on, like, year 12 or so.
John Litzinger
And, you know, I started, and really enjoyed it. I thought it was super fun. I thought it was cool to get to, like, focus on, on, like, you know, really high quality products, and just kind of learn the stories about them. And I hit a point in my time where I kind of realized that
Speaker 1
the area I was in wasn’t downtown, but a lot of the time that I was spending in my like, off time was downtown. I really love downtown Birmingham. You know, I spent a lot of time over at hop city, at restaurants around town, all that kind of stuff. And I had started to, like, bring cheeses to breweries and, like, let people try stuff and and so it occurred to me that, like, where I really wanted to be was more in the city, yeah. And that was kind of when I found out about, you know, the son of a butcher opening, and my my co worker was told me that Brian was kind of like one of the people helming that ship. And I said, Oh, that’s cool, because I met him through, you know, through that friend. And I it. Started thinking about it, and I said, this could be a cool opportunity for me to be able to get more involved with downtown Birmingham, and kind of get back to what I felt like were the things that I fell in love with in cheese and in the kind of, like, specialty goods area that I felt were starting to become lacking at where I was currently at, and that’s ultimately what ended up pushing me towards reaching out to him and saying, Hey, I’d really like to, yeah, be considered.
Carrie
So I like that you’re talking about downtown, because I do think what and even like putting together a team, sort of organically, I think that’s one of the things I love about local businesses. And there are just a lot of local more local food, like restaurants and stuff downtown than there would be on like, 280 or whatever. Yeah, for sure. But I do enjoy, like, I feel like when I go in, I usually see somebody I know, or you develop a relationship just by repeatedly going in. And then you do find those connections, which as kind of a extreme introvert when I’m not doing a podcast, like, I really like that, like being I don’t have to be an extrovert if I’m a good customer, like, four times people start to know me and talk, you know, yeah. I feel like you can’t. I do think that makes sense, that you can, can build those relationships and want to be in that area, kind of, yeah, yeah.
John Litzinger
And I think that’s, that’s one of the cool parts about the shop, for me, is like, that is kind of where we’re at. There’s people that that I know that had been coming to the shop for the entire time we’ve been open. And there’s some people, sometimes, these are people that, like, they don’t really talk to us a lot when they come in, but then over time, you get to know them better. And I literally, like, have some faces in my mind right now that I’m thinking of, and you’re like, oh, that person’s actually, like, really cool. I I’m glad we I’m glad he’s continuing to come in, because I would have never known anything about him otherwise, you know, yeah,
Carrie
so were you always looking in Pepper place, or were you just kind of like feelers out every No, we there were,
Brian McMillan
there were a few places we were looking at. Some, you know, right here downtown, some a little more over the mountains, some kind of between the two. And I think everything worked out the way it was supposed to. You know, there were, there were places we were looking at that had, like a the statistics or the demographics would have been maybe a little more advantageous for us to open, but it was really important for us to be part of the Birmingham community. And you know, what better place to like capture everyone from the Birmingham community, other than pepper place, especially for the Saturday market, you’re drawing people from all over and so it was a decision we, you know, some of it was out of our control, but it was a decision we got comfortable with really quickly and started to kind of see it.
Carrie
I do like it over here. I feel like it’s, we are close enough to downtown, where it’s still, you can kind of be in that mix, but we actually have parking. Yeah,
Brian McMillan
it’s critical. I’ve come to find out it’s very important to people in Birmingham, yeah, it is.
John Litzinger
It is kind of funny, because it feels, it does feel a little bit like it’s like on the outskirts, but in like, the best way possible, you know, yeah.
Carrie
So also for people who haven’t been yet and hopefully listen to podcasts and head right over. But you guys have a really nice shop. Like, it doesn’t, it doesn’t feel like we had a warehouse and we’re doing serving people during covid on the side of the road. And then also, like, it feels like this has been a dream forever. It’s very planned. Like, the branding is really excellent. Like, I feel like the the actual shop kind of matches what you have, and then it’s very well done. It’s very high. Thank you. Thank you.
Brian McMillan
So it was a big opportunity for us to, you know, as you, as you say, you know, doesn’t look like a warehouse on Findlay Avenue on the north side of Birmingham, but it was really important for us to being that this was Evans meets first entry into the public, you know, view, it was really important for us to make a good first impression that landing, yeah, I mean, we didn’t have a, you know, for those who haven’t been there, we’re, you know, it’s a, it’s a pretty small footprint. So, you know, part of, part of the reason for the design is, you know, had to be efficient. It had to feel welcoming, but also very, very clean, very, you know, so it was, we were, we were, and we had, you know, a lot of help in executing, you know, we kind of laid it out. And, you know, our architect, Bruce Lanier, was pretty instrumental, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Carrie
So that, where was that a team that you’d already worked with? Or did you put that team together too? Because I see probably somebody did your branding. And, yeah,
Brian McMillan
we actually didn’t have a full time marketing director until we it’s been two years now. So it was a bit of a patchwork of, yeah, you know, contractors and, you know, interns, and sometimes, sometimes us, yeah. So yeah, social media guy, yeah.
Carrie
I feel like, are you really a local business? If you start with a social media person, is that’s their whole job. Well, what about the name? Because I think that’s kind of a cool it’s a good name. And where did that come
Brian McMillan
from? Well, you know, so for those of the people listening who don’t know, like Evans meets full origin story, it was, you know, it was started in 1998 by gentleman called Butch Evans, and it’s, and that’s Adam Chase and Hunter’s dad, and he, he’s, he started the business, and now has three sons working in the business. So it’s, it’s kind of like a few different things, right? Like, you know, the son of a butcher, because they’re, yeah, the sons of, yeah, the son of a butcher being that, like, it’s kind of an offshoot of the parent company. And then, you know, nothing to do with kind of that play on words, yeah.
Carrie
I mean, it’s kind of brilliant, because it sounds, I mean, it sounds like there’s a story, even if you don’t know the story, if you do know the story, it’s like sons of a butcher named Butch, which is funny. Yeah, yeah. It’s great.
Brian McMillan
It’s funny because there were a lot of different names ideas thrown out there, and I don’t really remember as. Single one of them off top my head. Yeah? So it’s also good.
Carrie
I mean, it’s good SEO too. Like, it’s butchers in the name that’s nice,
John Litzinger
yeah? Like, oh, where’s the butcher? And it’s like, well, they’re gonna be a butcher, yeah?
Carrie
Well, kind of, I think that it’s really cool to think about, like, how it started, and all of that kind of, I guess, fast forward a little bit and tell people, kind of, what is son of a butcher today? Like, if you’re gonna walk in, what are people looking for in particular? What do you do that other people don’t, or that you’re offering, maybe, like, better or more uniquely than other people. I think there’s a lot, but I’d rather hear it from you, yeah,
John Litzinger
um, I think, okay, so what some of the, some of what we’re doing now? I think that’s, like, really cool. This kind of goes back to what I was saying about how I came down here to be more in the city, and the original thought process behind that was, like, I wanted to kind of teach people more about cheese. I wanted to have, like, more hands on with people to kind of really explain to them, like, Hey, this is these products are really cool. I’m going to help you, kind of, like, unveil the mystery behind this stuff. Because a lot of people are kind of weirded out about, like, going into a place where they don’t know what something is, and asking about it. Yeah, and I wanted to kind of act as like one of the people that can help communicate that so that they feel comfortable in the future. And that thought process that is like a through line to today, where we have a shop that has exceptional quality products, the things that we curate in the store are things that we’re all very passionate about. And that’s not just on the son of a butcher side of things. That’s also on the Evans side of things, right? So the cheeses are things that we really like, from small producers, from, like, literal friends, of of some of the people that are ordering, and things that we really stand behind. And the goal for myself and I think a lot of the people in the shop, is to be able to help everyone sort of understand why these products are good, where they’re coming from, what you can do with them as well, like teaching people how to how to utilize them in ways that maybe they don’t think about. And the current staff we have, there are all people that really like this stuff. They find these things super interesting. They they let a lot of them cook every night themselves. And so I think what, what you can kind of expect from the shop, as opposed to some other places, is one, it is a small team. And so a lot of us, when we pick items, we make sure that everybody has tried them, everybody knows how good they are. But two, it’s, it’s like one of those things where the folks there that are there have a ton of experience, a ton of knowledge, and they actively want to communicate that knowledge to you when you come in. And I think that’s something that that I appreciate when I go into a shop, and hopefully our customers appreciate it too, you know,
Carrie
yeah, and I think that’s something that is so great about a lot of small businesses, and I think you guys really exemplify that. And so many people don’t even, don’t realize that that’s how it is, because we’re so used to, and I’m not saying like, there are some corporate stores that that does. It’s not like, that doesn’t exist in corporate stores. But it’s not necessarily the norm. It’s like, you may you may talk to somebody who’s passionate about it, nine times out of 10, you won’t you know. And I think so many local businesses like you’re there, it’s a it’s a hard thing to do, to own a local business, to work in a local business. So most people who are there are there because they do have an actual love for the product. And that’s so different. Like, I remember I was I did some Instagram story about Valentine’s Day, and we were talking about charm at the time, and I was like, well, you can go in and just say, This is my mom. Here’s her Instagram, and they’ll find jewelry that goes with that. Yeah. And several people were like, that worked. I’m like, of course it did. Like, I could go to you guys and say, like, I don’t really know what my mom is into, but I know she likes this, this and this, and you could probably recommend this as a gift for her, for sure, but I’m not gonna walk into Publix and do that. Like, nothing against Publix, but I don’t think they’re they. I could say, like, every single time you talk to somebody, they’ll actually be able to connect you with, with that, yeah.
John Litzinger
And I think another cool thing about about, like, having people that are on the more passionate side of of the of, like, businesses, is, you know, one like, what I really like about being able to talk to people about these products. I do love seeing them kind of go like, Oh man, this is delicious. This is awesome. But I also really like being able to represent some of the people that we’re getting these things from, because a lot of them work just as hard as anybody else does. And I think, like sometimes when you look at. A price tag of an item in a store.
John Litzinger
Sometimes all you see is the price tag. You don’t see what’s going on, like behind the scenes of the people that are making those items. You know, like a great example is one of the cheeses we sell. It’s called holler Hawker, and it’s made by a guy named Walter Ross. You don’t see the fact that this is a man on, I think, like a three or four man team, who the other people that that actually help him, they don’t work like every single day he he gets up in the morning at like five in the morning and works till like six o’clock at night making cheese under his house. Yeah. And he does that every single day of the year, and he cares so much about it. But you see the price tag, and you don’t necessarily know that story, and it’s cool to be in a position where you can kind of communicate those stories to people and really help them understand, like there’s so much that goes into this. It’s not just a food item. It’s a passion project on the other end too.
Brian McMillan
So yeah, I think to kind of maybe try to sum up, what John was saying is that, you know, our big differentiator is relationships, and that, you know, and everyone, a lot of people, kind of say that, but it’s, it’s kind of at the core of everything we do, both at Evans meets and then son of a butcher is kind of A little bit of a microcosm for that. But, you know, I think having, like, a long track record at Evans, of like, building relationships and and developing trust with our restaurant partners have kind of become a core part of our identity. Yeah, and, and I think you know that that that filters all the way through the business and permeates all the way through the business has become just an integral part of our culture. It’s how we it’s how we try to source product, it’s how we try to treat our people, it’s how we treat our customers, and you know, it’s, it’s really at the end of the day, you know. And using cheese as an example, it doesn’t typically cost us anymore to develop a relationship and source thoughtfully. And I’ll just use Parmigiano Reggiano is an example. You know, it’s, it’s, there’s an opportunity to really buy commodity there. But it doesn’t really cost anything extra to meet the producers. Find out who you want to work with. You know, find the flavor profile you like, and then support a couple small dairies, rather than buy through the commodity lane. So
Carrie
we’ll kind of speak more to that, because I think a lot of people think it does, you know, like, and I would guess a couple of the reasons would be, when you’re buying at scale, like a corporation does, it would cost extra because they would have to do that 200 times. So I’m guessing that the fact that you’re not necessarily scaling to be like, I’m going to put this in 2000 stores or across the country, is part of that, or is it that, if you meet the people, you then can turn over so much more product, really, because you have those stories and you have those connections. And, I mean, yeah, so
Brian McMillan
for business to our scale, I think you know, because using a relationship based approach to sourcing, it becomes a competitive advantage for us, yeah. I mean, you can certainly be successful buying opportunistically, yeah, and, you know, kind of rolling through everybody. But it’s not necessarily our model, and we’re also not at the scale where we can, you know, take massive positions on
Carrie
it’s not a great long term strategy, and then you have to compete on price, right?
Brian McMillan
And that’s, that’s not, you know, we are competitive on price for sure, especially when you’re comparing, you know, Apple style oranges to oranges. It’s not the first question. It’s not the first question we necessarily, yeah. And you know, I think in order for something to become a core value, you have to, you know, identify it, and then also, you know, actually put it into practice. And, you know, specialty represents an area of the business where we can really quite easily, yeah, you know, develop relationships with smaller producers, yeah.
Carrie
Well, I love that, and especially if it’s part of your company culture to do that, I think if you have a company culture that we never meet the supplier, it’s hard to take those first like, how do you take a trip? But if you already have those, like, you have a. Method for that already. I think that makes sense.
Brian McMillan
Yeah, we kind of try to take the, you know, You catch more flies with honey than vinegar approach to sourcing, you know, we don’t. We want when we do, make an ask of one of our producers, you know, we want the answer to be yes. We want them to not cringe when they see our number come up on their call. We want, we really want to. We really want to try and be a partner, you know, all the way through the supply chain. So
Carrie
I love that you said that too, because I think a lot of people, when you’re only on the consumer side, generally, I think you order something, that thing is delivered, and if it’s not, you complain and you get your money back. At least in my experience, that was not true when operating with wholesalers, like, we would order certain cups, they send us other cups. They’re like, too bad, these are the cups we sent. Like, so it was a lot more going back and forth. So I can also see why that would save time and money if you make the relationship with the supplier in the first place, it’s a lot easier to call and be like, we weren’t super happy with this, or like, next time we want to pivot, and they’re probably more likely to listen to you because you have that relationship at first.
Brian McMillan
Yeah, yeah. Too bad. Too bad. Should really almost never be the answer.
Carrie
Not ideal, but I do think that the relationship you have with wholesalers is different, I think, than the relationship you have just as a cusp, like as a customer.
Brian McMillan
So it was feels more transactional. Yeah, and just a little, I don’t know, just different, so that is actually kind of one of the things that I think sets us apart as, you know, as a wholesale supplier, is that we, we believe that the transactions are a byproduct of a healthy relationship. You know, we’re not just trying to, I mean, we are trying to put things in the back door restaurants, but we, we want that to be, you know, if you develop the relationship, the transactions just come. We’re not, you know, yeah, we don’t do a lot of the tricks, a lot of other wholesale suppliers, yeah, things like that, yeah,
John Litzinger
I think, and I think one of the impressive things for me, one of the impressive things about like, you know, seeing, seeing them is that that you you can tell that, like, the value that is being espoused is something that they actually live. I think it was a couple years ago. You can, you can correct me if I’m wrong, on, on the exact details of this. But there is a, I think it was a local or not, sorry, not a local, but a cheese shop in a different state, where I want to say they lost power for like, such a long time that they had to basically throw all their product away. And we had a person from Evans that literally loaded their car up with like, cheese and drove up there and, like, helped them reset everything. Yeah, and, you know, that’s like, one of those things that I see, and I’m like, wow. Like, that goes beyond just like saying that you care, you know. So, yeah,
Brian McMillan
we’ve hired a lot of people from the industry, former chefs and that sort of thing. And so we’ve all kind of been in the same fight for a long time now. Yeah,
Brian McMillan
so, and, you know, going back to that word partner, you know that partners are, are forged in the more difficult times. Otherwise, it’s just, you know, business, really transactional relationship, yeah, so, you know, sometimes going the extra mile. And, you know, in the case of Jackson, Mississippi or New Orleans, where we service sometimes going the extra 350 miles is what the relationship calls for. Yeah, we do it so well. It also,
Carrie
I feel like you’re, you know, food is also something that builds relationships so much so it does make sense also for your product, that you’re kind of feel like you’re, you know, building those relationships all the way around. And then even your end product is essentially helping people build relationships, you know, yeah,
John Litzinger
I was, I was actually thinking about this pretty much, that exact thing this morning, when I was kind of, you know, going over things in my head about, you know, what to talk about. And that is, that is, I think, one of the coolest parts about, like, you know, being involved in something like this is that, like, food is something that, for me, is some is, is a way to, like, express feelings to people. It’s a way to connect people. It’s, it’s something that, like, you know, it is a communication piece in and of itself. Yeah, and it’s, it’s really neat to just be involved in that kind of scene and get to see, like, how other people handle that, you know, because I think, like what we do with it and what what they do with it, I think is something that goes a little beyond what, what sometimes other people look at it as, you know, yeah, and I think especially, you know, our society is kind of more steady.
Carrie
Into now, and I think it is cool, not only to buy from a local store where you are getting that connection, but also to kind of, like, prepare a meal, or when you guys sell the restaurants, to be able to sit down in a restaurant and enjoy that meal. Like is something also we had lost, like during covid, for sure. Well, can you talk some about building the relationship with restaurants, which is what Evans did, primarily for so long, and then building the relationship with customers across the counter. And like, are there things, is that? What are the commonalities, and are there differences in that? I’ll start, I guess. Yeah.
Brian McMillan
So sorry. Rephrase the question kind of like,
Carrie
how different is it like, creating a relationship with the restaurant supplier versus, like, the person who’s gonna walk in off the street to I mean,
Brian McMillan
I think there are probably more similarities than there are differences, really, right? I mean, it’s all it’s all about creating trust. I mean, you know, when you walk into when Evans reps sitting down, you’re going through a menu change as a chef, and an Evans rep sits down with you and kind of helps talk you through that. You know, that’s that’s something where takes time with a chef, you know, to build that trust. You know, I was in Atlanta or Athens, Georgia last week with one of our reps, and someone wanted to put something on the menu, and that particular item, because of, like, some larger supply chain issues, was going to be problematic. And so we consultants that that sounds great, but yeah, you might be setting yourself up for heartbreak. And so, like, you know, just being, rather than try and get a quick sale, you know, really kind of telling the whole story with a customer, you know, is, in the long term, gonna be bear a lot more fruit. And, you know, as far as I mean, pretty much the same as what you do with regular customers,
John Litzinger
yeah, I mean, from on the on the retail side of things, on the butcher side of things, I think that it is an investment. It’s just investing the time, like when somebody comes up, and I think a lot of this is stuff that when you work with people enough, you kind of are able to pick up on it a little more easily. But when you have people come in and you can tell that they actually do, they’re not just there to grab a thing and leave, they actually want to know a little bit about it. You invest in it. And that’s one way where you can, like, build trust with those people so that when they come in, they’re more likely to, like, take your, you know, your recommendations and whatnot. And that’s for the people that are interested. But I think for the people that come in and they just, they’re just grabbing something and leaving. It’s like, just, maybe we’ve all seen it in, like, you know, TV shows and stuff. It’s remembering, like, what they like next time, asking them how that thing was, that they cooked last time. It just shows that you paid attention. Yeah, and that makes them feel like you, you actually like, care about them. And then that builds trust. And then, over time, like you, you have a better relationship. And I think that it’s the investment in people is kind of like the thing that both sides is very similar in because when, when, when they have accounts, come into the shop every now and again to, like, check some stuff out, I pretty much do the same thing that I do with them, that I do with customers. Yeah, when I’m letting them try cheeses, and it’s just letting them go through them, explaining to them what they are and, like, you know, picking out flavor notes and things like that, yeah, successfully, yeah.
Carrie
Do you have, is there more of like, I imagine you have some some customers who are know, know what they’re looking for, excited by it, and maybe some people who have a lot of a learning curve. How do you kind of talk to those people that are just like, I don’t know what I want or are do you have people who are a little bit hostile, of like, well, why is this this way? Or I would imagine this probably aren’t long term customers anyway, but kind of, even if you just are kind of approaching it with ignorance and saying, like, I would like to get into this, but I don’t know how I imagine you might see more of that on the customer side than the restaurant side, but maybe I’m wrong about that. But how do you kind of approach that.
John Litzinger
So on my on my side of things, I think that one thing when you’re when you’re in this kind of position, you should always be thinking about when you’re trying to, like, explain things to people, is when you’re explaining something to somebody and you’re trying to get them to learn something. It’s not for you, it’s for them. And I think that you need to just make you need to remember a time in your life when you didn’t know these things too. And I luckily had a lot of mentors when I was getting through the cheese world that were really good at explaining things and investing in me, that I think it gave me a good concept for how to do it for other people.But essentially, you just need to. It you need to want to teach them because you want them to be enriched and be able to, like, kind of understand these things, like after you’re done, right? I think a lot of times too many people want to teach because they want to, like, kind of a lord the knowledge above people and say, look how smart I am. Look how good at this stuff I am. And I think that’s just the wrong way of looking at teaching somebody. So we do have customers that don’t understand this stuff sometimes. But you know, the whole reason I’m in this industry is because I like being able to teach people stuff. So for example, with the cheese world, it’s like, why are prices so high? I’m generally very honest with people about this thing. Customers are smart. They’re not they’re not dumb. They they if you can explain something to them, they’re gonna understand the concept behind it. Like, this is an imported item. You have to pay for the import in some cases. Or, hey, this comes from a particular type of animal that’s not overwhelmingly prevalent in the United States. So the milk is a lot more limited, and then their production is, I’m okay with, like, just breaking it down. And a lot of times when you do that, people are like, Oh, I didn’t think about that. And maybe they don’t purchase it, but now they know, right? So they can make more informed decisions in the future. Yeah, yeah. I think
Brian McMillan
going to the original question, I think, you know, especially on the counter, which, you know, I find myself behind from time to time. You know, my approach is always trying to meet people on their level. And you know, so if someone comes in confused or or what’s the word timid? Yeah, you know, just try and demystify everything. Make it make it easy. You know, it’s not, you know, these are simple agricultural products. It’s nothing. You know. The end of the day, it’s right. And you know. So you know, in that case, you try and make them feel comfortable. Sometimes people come in and want to flex and you know, show how much they know, and you know. So you you let them flex a little bit try and try and, you know, meet their what you know, they think their level is, and, you know, just make them in a different way, feel comfortable, you know, yeah. And sometimes people come in hostile, very rarely, I would say in our show, yeah, it doesn’t, doesn’t doesn’t happen super often at our shop. I think in general, the most that we really get is, like, just sometimes people do ask about pricing and stuff like that, and it’s like, you know, yeah, sometimes you
Brian McMillan
just take it at face value, yeah. But overwhelmingly, I would say the you know, Birmingham community has been very receptive to what we’re doing and, and I think that’s mostly, you know, a testament to who we are as a community, and then also who we’ve brought into the shop to kind of tell our story, because it’s, it’s not, you know, being able, that’s, that’s 90% of it is being able to, you know, not only lay it out there, but then, you know, let people know how these things used in the real world and in their kitchens. Yeah.
Brian McMillan
Well, as far as, kind of, like, demystifying a little bit. Can you explain, like, what a cheese monger is, what a fish monger is like? How you be? How do you even get from interest to major in this? Well, I mean, short answer, no. Long answer, yes, if in a bun, yeah. So a monger, be it fish, cheese, meat, or whatever it’s, monger is someone who, who trades in in a single commodity. Yeah? So a cheese monger would be one who just sells cheese. And as far as accreditation goes, there are there we are developing as an industry accredited accreditation for cheese mongers, yeah, which is the ACS certified cheese professional, and it’s a pretty rigorous test, yeah, yeah.
John Litzinger
It’s, yeah, so, so the the certificate, you, there’s a, there’s, I think, currently, two certifications in the cheese world, and they’re, they’re all coming from the American Cheese Society. One is, like a sensory certification, which basically means that you, you have, like, a really good handle on, like, tasting and smelling cheeses. It’s like that one’s pretty neat, but there’s another one that’s a more kind of broad, all encompassing, and it’s called certified cheese professional. And essentially it’s a matte it’s like a two to three hour long test that you, that you take, that covers kind of everything. And I think each year. That they do it, they have a slightly different focus. But it covers everything from like, even the the make process of it, all the way to like, the selling side of things. It asks, sometimes, some of the stuff I studied for had like things about, okay, well, what’s the lactose content in this cheese? What’s the the ash content, which is like the little mineral content of the milk that you’re getting they’re using for these cheeses. So it’s, it’s a pretty like, in depth program. I wish I had a flashier name, you know, like, I feel like sommelier is pretty cool. Yeah, certified cheese professional or abbreviated CCP. Could give you give people the wrong idea, but, yeah, it’s, there’s a there’s a couple of them out there, and those you don’t have to do to be a cheese monger. You can sell cheese without that stuff and be extremely proficient. But that’s kind of for people that if they want to just go, like, the extra step and really kind of nerd out, yeah, about it, you know? So
Carrie
how do people like, if anybody’s sort of interested in that, or how did like, what was your path? Did you just kind of say, like, I’m selling this. I really like it. Like, did you have people in your life that were into this? Like, how do you go from Island?
Brian McMillan
Yeah, your story behind? I mean, I came in through the culinary door. You know, I worked in restaurants as a cook and a chef, and then, you know, buying cheese was kind of a small part of the job, and one that I inexplicably took an interest in, because no one else really seemed to this is early, early, 2000s and you know, cheese, especially domestic, didn’t has, hadn’t yet kind of gotten to the prominent place it is right now. And so I took an interest in cheese. And, you know, just bought my first book, cheese primer by Steven Jenkins. I think it was everyone’s oranges first book. And just started kind of, you know, doing research and tasting and visiting shops. You know, I was in New York at the time, so visiting the original Murrays on Bleecker Street, and just kind of DIY, cultivating that passion. And then, you know, a rep, a cheese rep, walked into our kitchen, and I was like, I kind of want to do what that guy’s doing. Yeah, just a satchel full of cheese, tasting it, talking about it. And then once I got, got to meet and do my first farm visit. Then then you’re just hooked and just seeing the love that goes into this. And you know, just took a job at a store called V Richards, which doesn’t exist anymore, but our mutual friend Ricky Little’s family owned that, so I ran their cheese program. Like, that’s a legend in Birmingham. So, yeah, yeah, definitely. So, you know, just sort of grew from there. Yeah,
Carrie
I see that. Feel a little bit inside of a butcher too. Like I live down the street from be Richards, and I couldn’t afford, like, I would very poor at the time, but like, I mean, post college, yeah, just like, walk through it and be like, it’s lovely, you know? Yeah, so what was your kind of path to that?
John Litzinger
Uh, so I didn’t know, I guess, like, yeah, I didn’t know what I wanted to do when I got out of got out of college. And, you know, I went to college for like, 3d animation, and I kind of realized, like, really fast, like, that’s not really for me. I have too much nervous energy to, like, sit in one spot for too long without doing something. So I ended up getting a job at Starbucks, and that was originally it was just like a thing to do while I figured out what I was wanting to do. And I kind of fell in love with, like, the the art of coffee I had. There’s a coffee shop that opened up nearby that did really, really awesome coffee at the time. And I started going there and trying their stuff. And I got really interested in Primavera, okay, back in the day, yeah, that was, like, my first good I was the first cup of coffee I had that. Like, it blew my mind. Like, I remember walking out of there just being like, yeah, what did I just Oh, my god, yeah, cool, yeah.
Carrie
Originally, when we started Church Street, we carried primavera. And they’re doing different stuff now, but they also, at the time, would train you and like we got them to train all our braces and service, our Marzocco and all the things. Those guys
John Litzinger
were great. They really moved the needle. Yeah, coffee in this town, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think that was like the free. Time I, like, discovered what Latte Art was, and I was just completely enamored with it. And I remember, like, trying to figure out how to do it. I was not very good at it, but I would try to put little, like, hearts and stuff on the cups at Starbucks and but that, that, like, got me into the it’s kind of kind of got me looking at food a little more. I started watching Food Network at the time, and I got really in into, like cooking, and I really wanted to learn more about how to do that. I had this whole idea to become a chef in my head that kind of didn’t work out. But I started working at a restaurant on the front of house, and realized again, like, oh boy, that’s not for me. I can’t do the shopping. And at some point in time, ended up moving downtown or moving to the J Clyde downtown. That’s where I ended up landing for a little bit after the first restaurant job. And I got super into the craft beer industry. I promise this is no, I think this is, well, we are getting there.
Carrie
How it happens? Yeah. And also all of these places like V Richards, primavera, J Clyde, all have their story history.
John Litzinger
Yeah, usually the origin story is a little long because no one it really is,like, one of those things that you just kind of fall into, and you’re like, oh, wow, I really like that. Yeah. So I’m spending some time at the J Clyde. And during that time frame, I was going to pull foods a lot. That’s where me and my girlfriend would get, get our groceries for the week. And while I was in there, there’s, there’s a gentleman that I saw regularly. He was always working in the beer aisle. And I found out he was the team leader for the specialty department there, which is the department that covers your wine, your beer, your coffee. It covered cheese, charcuterie. It covered like chocolates. It was like the fancy department, right? And he came up to me. He’d seen me at the J Clyde, because he would go every now and again. He said, Hey, how are things over the Clyde? And I said, Well, they’re doing okay. At the time I was it was a little slower. And I was like, you know, it’s been a little, I’ve been making a little less than I want to. And he was like, well, you ever thought about a part time job, but we could use you in in specialty. So I kind of, like thought about it for a couple of weeks, and I eventually said, You know what? Let’s give it a try. And I ended up going for it. And guy, Randall, felt he’s the guy that hired me, super knowledgeable about cheese. He was one of those certified cheese professionals, and I just didn’t, I didn’t know anything about it at all, like I knew what cheddar cubes and Colby Jack cubes were like. That’s what I ate at home. I knew nothing about it, but I remember the the so first of all, I had a lot of really awesome cheeses, but I remember one specific moment that kind of like clicked in my head, and it made me kind of go like, Oh, this is actually super cool. It was the first time I had a second wheel of gruyere at a different time of year because I’d had it when I first started there, yeah. And then maybe three, four months later, I had it again, and I remember taking a bite of it, and it tasted totally different, yeah. The first one was, like, a little bit, kind of, like, had a little bit of, kind of a funky thing to it. It was creamy, had a little crunch in it, but it over, it overwhelmingly, was like brown butter or something like that, right? This next one I tried. It tasted like field onions and like pistachios, yeah? And I remember going, like, holy crap. Why is this different? Yeah? And it started to look to, I asked Randall, and I started to kind of, like, think about it more, and it’s, it’s all down to, like, cheese is a living thing. It changes over time. And the output that you get from the input changes depending on, you know, what the cows are eating, what the air the cows are breathing, and, like, what water they’re drinking. And it was just such a cool thing to, like, go, oh, this is a food item. And you so often you expect to go in and get the same thing every single time. And it’s a little bit cool to go one time and get something and then go the next time, and it’s a little bit different. But the reason it’s different isn’t because the maker did it wrong, yeah, it’s just because that’s how it works, and that’s what got me into it.
Carrie
It’s so cool because, you know, we talked about connecting to people, and food connects you to people, but it’s so much connecting to, even like the world, yeah, the land, which we aren’t very, I think we’re notoriously not very connected to. And it does seem like correct me, correct me if I’m wrong. But it seems like that is a common thread through everything that Evans provides that it is very connected to, like the earth the sun,
Brian McMillan
yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think sometimes it’s it can be easier to thread that needle with cheese with and work with small producers. But even the like, our, our quote, unquote, more conventional beef program, you know, we work with, and I’m speaking a little outside my lane. I’m just a cheese monger, but, you know, we work with, like, farm to feeder programs where, you know, they’re, they’re actually, you know, I. They can name the small ranch that the cattle are produced on we work with, you know, a series of small beef packers. And, you know, we, we can say with a lot more confidence than perhaps some other people that we we know where our products are coming from across the board. So definitely,
Carrie
well, I think I kind of want to pivot, because I want to ask about your sandwiches and your grab and go and those kinds of things. I feel like I’m like, my mind is all like, in the beautiful, like, connection, which I do think is a part of it. And I do think we recently had somebody on the podcast, the gathering lab, who she like, connects people and deals with, like the lack of connection. And I do think buying local and like eating food that is like you can feel that like taste the connection is another way that we can kind of put that back into our lives, in a way. So I feel like I was kind of going that direction, but I want to talk about, because, kind of tell people about the sandwich program, and then how did that come about? Like, was it using? Yeah, it
Brian McMillan
was a funny one. John can definitely elaborate. So, two things. One, you know, when we opened the shop, it was too much buzz and really, really busy, you know, almost unmanageably so. But we had a pretty skilled crew, so it was manageable. Yeah, yeah. At some point, we knew that we would have to start doing things and hustling a little bit, well, I think it was about a month and a half in, yeah, maybe it was like a month and a half, month and a half in, you know, I come into the shop and those you aren’t familiar with prosciutto de Parma. It’s shaped kind of like a guitar, mandolin in a way. It’s got a neck and a short, little, stubby guitar. Yeah, and our ukulele, really, but we had nine or 10 of the the top the neck part sitting in our cooler. What are we going to do with this? And, you know, kind of tossed around some ideas, and we’re just like, well, let’s just, let’s just make a sandwich. And it was pursued at a Parma, butter baguette, parmesan, original cheese. Super simple. And there, believe it or not, there were some detractors on this idea, but let’s just do it on Saturday morning. You know,
John Litzinger
it was very much an off the cuff thing too. Like, I think, didn’t you just, like, roll in with some baguettes or something like that. You’re like, let’s do it, yeah, we started with
Brian McMillan
Saturday morning, and then we, we, you know, we opened at eight. We were sold out by 815 Shoot, let’s make double that next week. Yeah, of something. And then, and then just sort of grew and evolved. And then, you know, John can kind of talk about the evolution, yeah.
John Litzinger
So, so, you know, like, like, Brian was saying, when we first implemented the program, the idea behind it, like, the next of the prosciutto, they’re not, like, full sheets, like, like, I want to give to people at the shop. And so we had, like, excess. And it was like, well, we need to do something with this. We can’t just throw it away. That would be a total waste. And the sandwich idea was, like, originally an avenue to say, Okay, well, we’ve got all this charcuterie, and there comes a point in the piece where you don’t necessarily want to use that to give to a customer, not because it tastes bad, because it just doesn’t look, yeah, the way that you want it to look, yeah. And so it was like, well, let’s, let’s apply this to a sandwich. We can make really good sandwiches with really high quality charcuterie and other ingredients. And it was originally very simple, right? But, you know, as with most things like, over time, making just a prosciutto butter and parmigiano Janna sandwich every single week for me, was a little like it wasn’t as creative as I wanted to be with it. And so we started coming up with different ideas, like, well, what can we do? Can we really push the limits of, like, what our area can handle? And that, you know, segued all the way into, you know, nowadays, where the way that it operates, instead of, instead of it just being me coming up with stuff, and then, like, saying, here’s what we’re going to do. Now, we’ve got multiple people at the shop that have creative ideas that pitch stuff, will usually say, like, hey, here, what are we going to do this week? And then we will come up with a sandwich for the following week on a week to week basis. And I think we’ve come up with some pretty cool stuff. I mean, I think, you know, we’re not just doing charcuterie sandwiches now, but when we do though, is they’re still exceptional, because they’re still using really, really great ingredients. So I kind of view it as like a creative outlet for people a little bit, and we just want to make sure that we hit like a certain bar of quality for it. And yeah, yeah, I’ve been personally really enjoying what we’ve been coming up with this year.
Carrie
I think it’s fun, and also, because it’s like a. Different. I mean, because you kind of like, have a different sandwich, do you still announce on Instagram? And then you can kind of come and be like, Okay, today I want this, and I’m only going to get it today, and we’re going to they’re going to sell out at some point. So I used to love I feel like there are certain days where, if you walk outside at lunchtime, you just see people from all the neighboring businesses heading over to son of a butcher, it’s like, really fun.Yeah,
Brian McMillan
it’s, yeah, it’s a lot of fun and creative. I think it’s, you know, at the end of the day, you know how you value those byproducts are probably, you know, the margin between success and failure to a degree. And also, you know, sandwiches bring people in the door and allow them to see what we we really do, which is, you know, procure and sell, you know, the best, yeah, products from around the country, world.
John Litzinger
Yeah. And I think with the with the sandwich program, to the whole, the byproduct idea, it’s like, that’s, that’s really what it comes down to, is we always want with these sandwiches, we want people to, like, look at it and and we want them to look at them as curated items that are like things we’ve put thought into an investment into, you know, every single time. And if we feel like we don’t hit the mark on that, like one week, then we probably won’t do that one again.
Carrie
Well, I feel like we could go on forever, but I think that, I mean, we have to wrap up at some point. And so tell people like, how the best play, the best time to kind of, I mean, the best way to get in touch with you. I think it’s probably just to come to the shop. Is it to come to the shop to come get a sandwich? Or, I guess this will run like it won’t be exactly holiday time, but I think people start thinking through so do you have, like, some special stuff coming up? Or should they come to you and talk about charcuterie boards? Or what? Yeah, we do, yeah?
John Litzinger
I mean, depending on exactly when people are seeing this, we have a couple of holiday menus that come out every year. We’ve got one for Thanksgiving, and we’ll have one for Christmas. The Christmas one covers New Year’s as well. So you’ll see a lot of really cool stuff on there, like, you know, seasonal stuff, like turkeys, hams, rib roasts, tenderloins. We have cheese boards on there for sure. And then we’ve got some other like little, little add on items, like caviar, maitre d butter, like stuff like that, that that are just meant to kind of enhance your, your holiday experience. And then there’s, like, some specialty cheeses that are on there as well, but also at the end of the day, if you, if you are looking for stuff like that, you can just come in during that time too. Yeah, it’s a busy time. But it’s also kind of like the time when I feel like, when I feel like, the energy is the highest for the year as well. So it’s fun to, kind of, it’s fun for us.
Brian McMillan
Yeah, yeah. I think being there, around, around that buzz and being, you know, I mean, what, what better time of year to be part of the community is, you know, on the most important festive meals of the year, yeah, and regarding, you know, how to start that relationship. I think, you know, shout out to Emily, our marketing director, I think she’s done a really good job of making making sure people know we’re there and we’re ready to serve without being, you know, bombastic or anything like that, you know. So we have a pretty good presence on Instagram, but you know that things are, you know, the major happenings. We also have a newsletter that gets sent out every Monday, Sunday, yep, and you know, and then you know, or just pop in, you’re gonna see a friendly face, for sure.
Carrie
Yeah. I think on the customer side, it’s like a fun time of year to say, like, Okay, I’m going to do something special, and then maybe also become familiar with the shop and start coming throughout the year too. So cool. Yeah, holidays are great time, not for phone calls the week of things. Yeah, think that’s probably, probably true for any business, any brick and mortar at this point, check out the socials to see what’s already there. Check out the website, and then just come by, apologies if the phone isn’t answered. All right. Well, thank you guys so much for coming. Yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you. The localist podcast is produced by me, Carrie Rollwagen, and we record right here at infomedia studios. So if you’re interested in doing your own podcast or just even recording some social media clips, we would love to help just head to infomedia.com and fill out that contact form, and we’ll let you know if we can meet your needs. There’s a whole team that helps me put the localists together here. Here, our show runner is Taylor Davis. Hanna craign is our outreach manager, and Paul Bryant is here with me in the studio working on sound and video. Find show notes and links to what we talked about today at carrierollwagen.com and you can find me on social media at sea Rollwagen. Until next time, here’s to thinking global by acting local and putting small shops before big bucks.